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Full episode transcript
Hi. I'm Gigi Benitez, a licensed realtor and a certified international property specialist here today with a very special guest to answer so many of your mortgage and financing questions as foreign investors. Mr. Warren Phillips Kirk from Mortgage Finder right here in Dubai. Thank you so much for coming out. I'm so grateful for your time because coming from America and being someone who's connecting the US markets in Dubai, one of the main concerns and the top questions that I get from Americans are about financing and mortgaging. Who better to ask than someone who was the third broker ever in Dubai? One of the first. Yeah, should we say that? Probably the longest still practicing here. Been getting on for 20 years in the industry here now. So yes, lots of experience in the local market.
Tell me about how you came to Dubai. Remember you telling me the story about just opportunity. Most people come here for opportunity to work in a different area of financial services than I was in. Did that for a while, and then sort of realized the opportunities within the property finance sector, which is what I was doing previously in the UK. Got involved with a company which was the first pioneering company there. It was only very small, two two other new guys to the UAE. I was their first recruit. Then we grew the company and yes, and then I'm still here now carrying on with my work.
How is that because this is an interesting story. I've had a lot of Middle Eastern background guests on my podcast and on my show, but you're European background in what Americans would say is an Arab country. How is that for you? Look, Dubai is very cosmopolitan. The UAE is very cosmopolitan. I mean, when I first came here, I wouldn't say it was restrictive. Actually, because it was still pretty liberal and progressive from day one. There was just less of it. Now, the metropolis it's grown into now is much wider and larger and more fantastic by the year as it goes. So it was just an opportunity I had. Some family had been over here and lived in the past. My uncle was one of the engineers on the Burj. Really? Really. Yeah, going back to the early 70s. Yeah. So when there was just that and miles and miles of sand around. I hadn't been there at that time. I was a small child. But my family had been here. You know, so I'd heard a little bit about the place. And when I got the opportunity, I thought, yeah, let's have a look at it. Came out, looked at it, loved it. Been here ever since.
Yeah. So that's one of the things that really drew me to Dubai is that multicultural diversity and warmth to it. Even though I have a Middle Eastern background, when I come here, I hear and see so much diversity and warmth. It just works. I find it spectacular. So really, real estate was not my entire purpose. It was more to create a bridge between the United States and Dubai and to open the eyes of what Americans are missing out on, from a lifestyle perspective, from a business perspective. And of course, real estate is one of the top sectors in Dubai. So I've been going back and forth between Dubai and San Diego and Miami, New York, and even Toronto to help them understand the opportunities, the capital appreciation, the ROI, the tax-free haven that Dubai is, the global business hub that it is, the diversity, the lifestyle, the safety.
And I've asked over and over again, okay, tell us about financing. And as a foreign investor, can we secure financing? When in the process does that work? And what is the process? So may you walk us through that?
Sure. Okay. So I mean, the mortgage industry started off probably 2002. I came over in 2005ish. It's very much structured in exactly the same way the mature mortgage market works. The mathematics of the way things work is exactly the same way. Typically, it was more used by Western expats, which you rightly say we're more used to this structure. But now it's widely used across all diversities, across all types of clients because they realize it's good. Even at this stage now where we're going through probably a relatively high period of interest rates, right? Especially, and I'm sure you see what's happening in the US. Your interest rates are still what at the moment? We're lower than the US, lower than UK, quite a bit lower. So this is quite a new time for me because normally it's the other way around.
Okay. So we're going through a bit of a good patch. Typically, the rates that we have now are only marginally higher than they were in the past. So it all makes relative sense compared to rental yields. Yeah. We've been involved in it from the start when there was literally a handful of banks that were lending doing this type of thing. Now there's still a small amount compared to other places. It's about 22 to 23 banks maybe that are lending within the UAE in the mortgage sector. Compared to the UK, I'm centric. There could be 30,000 different lending opportunities in the US. So it's still in the infancy stage. There's still a lot more to go. So much more to go. But even right now, it's a great opportunity.
Coming from San Diego, off-plan is not a huge market. But let's say in some parts of Canada and in Miami, off-plan is an apples-to-apples comparison with regard to the projects. Tell us about when you come in there, when they can start. With off-plan financing, it is more limited than completed financing. The banks generally tend to favor developments that are being built by the master developers. But that doesn't mean there are others as well. Name some of those master developers. Nakheel, Emaar, Dubai Properties, Miras. These type of developments. But then there's others as well that the banks have looked at in detail and signed off to finance.
And the way it works, which is structured by the Central Bank, the Central Bank insists that a buyer must put their 50% in first before the banks can start paying anything on the remainder to the developer. So if you're on a payment plan with the developer for an off-plan, once you hit 50%, the banks can take over. Then the banks can take over. And then how does that work?
So the individual's payments are usually linked to construction milestones where you're due to pay another 10%, 15%, whatever that may be. And the bank will pay that on your behalf. Then there'll be a slow roll-up of monthly repayment as they disperse more and more on your behalf to completion. Basically, how long does that process take? And what's the qualification for a foreign investor?
It's the same process as a mortgage application. It's a mortgage. It's simply exactly the same. It's just dispersed in small tranches. But you don't have to do it every time there's a tranche. It's done once, and then it's automated. So it's a good way for clients to say, okay, I know that's sorted. You know, it's done. I don't have to worry about another six payments every six months. It's finalized.
And the structure of that is they will come in after the 50% from your side and then manage the other 50%. And there are even some banks that will release back the additional bit to finish property loans values on completion as well. Okay. So yes, they're pretty flexible in that respect. And what do you look for? What are the qualifications? Is one-year income again? Taxes, returns? Or in a rough, for Americans, broad brush of context?
Depends whether somebody's salaried, self-employed, et cetera. But the most commonly used options or low-document options that look at the running balances in your personal accounts. Sounds a bit basic, but you know, they'll think, okay, if you've got 2,000 as a running balance in your personal account, they'll offer you a mortgage with a payment of 1,000. 50%. But they also don't dig into other outgoings you have in your home country. So it's very simplistic and easy to use in that way. And on that basis, it's 60% for finished property, capped at 50% for off-plan. And that's the most commonly used one. And that product can lend up to sort of 20 million dirhams on finished property. Significant, significant amount. Over that, then it reverts to a full document with a number of banks.
Okay. But with the full document process, it's much more heavily detailed. We're reconciling everything from home countries. So it's more complex. Okay. Tell me about resale projects. What the process is? Is it significantly different? Or no?
In the open market? You mean? No, it's exactly the same. That product's available for open market as well. But they'll lend up to 60%. And in certain cases, 60% plus 60% of the transaction costs as well. The 4% DLD and the 2% agency. You can roll 60% of those elements into it as well. So the leveraging then is getting close to 65%, which is pretty high.
Expand for if someone hasn't watched my previous episodes. The DLD is that Dubai Land Department, which is basically a registration. We would probably call it a title. They're the governing body of all things land. But you know, from the government basically. So the processes, the registration, the sales, the collection of the fees. Absolutely everything. Warren, a question I ask often and I answer often, but I'd love to hear it from your viewpoint. The safety of investing in Dubai as a financial expert and as someone who's handling and helping people with the money part of it. Share with us how safe is it to invest in Dubai?
Well, in terms of the developers themselves, the land's got to be paid for before they can even start advertising it. It's got to be up to a certain construction milestone before they can start advertising. All the funds go into escrow and then are released against construction milestones as well. So it's as safe as you can get. You know, the same as you would get in other mature market jurisdictions. It wasn't like that at the beginning. There weren't those rules. So it was a lot more high risk. But that's all gone. You know, everyone has to play by the same rules governed by the Lands Department. So you know, it's pretty robust. All the measures to protect the consumer. And you were here before the DLD? Yep. So how happy were you to see the transition of learning from the previous bumps in the road in this real estate world here to what happened before 2008?
Well, it was just so brand new at that stage. You know, like 3 or 4 years from when the first ability to allow foreigners to buy to this booming crazy market where people were just transacting on sales agreements. There was no Land Department. There were no mortgages. Weren't registered. Everything was developer-centric to mediate and regulate what was going on with that development, hold the money. But they could use that money to go and buy four more plots before they've even started building this property. So all that craziness is now gone, eradicated. It's much, much better for everybody, safer. So I would feel as confident buying here as I would do back in the UK, back in Europe, because the measures are so robust.
All the real estate transactions are now regulated. And then there's also a transparency to the real estate market here that comparable to other large markets maybe isn't as transparent. For everyone to be able to hop onto an online portal, it's a big booming market this. But in comparison to the UK, US, it's still small. So to try and do a market comparison with the US, even in some of the states, it's just vast compared to this. Here you can go into an area. You can pretty much work out what the medians are, the values. There's really strong portals such as Property Finder that provide lots and lots of data to work it out for yourself. Up-to-the-minute market data that tells you the average rentals, price increases, decreases. So you can educate yourself quite a lot. You don't have to sort of believe the agents that are showing you these things. There are so many strong portals.
There's more data now than ever before. And that helps so much because you know, when I'm out there sharing the stories about the success and the trend, record-breaking quarter after quarter after quarter, and the fact that UBS just stated that Dubai is still a fair buy and there's no bubble risk, and we're still seeing such an increase and an opportunity for further increase in price per square foot. But it's like, you don't need to take my word for it exactly. You can just go on to Property Finder and other online portals and track it.
Sure. I mean, the future and the outlook of the UAE is a growing population. That's it. Take all the other factors. You're right, just look at that. Look at the demand. A growing population, growing there. Isn't enough property. Demand outweighs supply. And people can also go, you know, another thing that you say, well, you know, there's so much land that isn't built on. You know the property won't retain its value because of oversupply. But it's a strange sort of anomaly that all that land is owned by the state generally. Exactly. They control it. They're going to decide quickly or slowly. They're going to deliver that. So and they've learned it from the past, you know, the over-supply, under-supply equation. They're super smart people that are used to this market. Yes. So the learning and learning and doing it right, doing it better every time. And they can. The speed to decision making is so much faster than other places because the idea is there, makes sense, it's done. It doesn't get debated for five years the way it does in other places.
For example, the way even they handled COVID. Exactly. You know, it's do as you're told. And that's what happened. And it worked. And people and businesses and finances were not suffering the way they were in other parts of the world, such as my own country, because of that quick thinking and decision.
I mean, I'm in contact with family back in the UK. We're talking about this 18-month period where it was all locked down. This was like just felt about 3 or 4 weeks here. And then it was normal. That was it. Yeah. It was. You know, it was. Which not only helped everybody from a mental health standpoint, being able to continue to live their lives, but from a business perspective, it was incredible. So when I'm sharing with my investors back home and investors in Canada about the safety of investing in Dubai, both real estate but also as a business hub, this place is run as a business. And you have the brightest minds not only that are local to the UAE but attending conferences. Global brilliant minds coming together, converging here, and discussing how to continue to grow the market here. And then you have the master plan, and then you have the D33, and you have the economic plan. It's always looking toward the future, thinking ahead, nimble and dynamic. They can get these things done.
You know, old, historic, structured COVID countries can't move this fast. And seeing how quickly they're just developing and making these decisions is fantastic. Fantastic for business. You know, if something needs to be done, they get it done. Yeah, I want to repeat again what you just said because I just think it's so brilliant. I studied economics at UCSD, and I didn't pick up so much from it. But the thing that I take away, many years later, from 1995, so I'm aging myself, is that supply and demand. We're talking about that population growth, period. We can add on to it the top global destination from a tourist standpoint. We could talk about Rashidya drawing people now to Dubai. The casino being built. So now you've got increased tourism. We can talk about how safe it is to tour and how women are safe here touring. But if you just look at the population, which was like 3.5 million, I think it hit last year, and they're forecasting 5.9 million by 2040. And you add, like you just said, I'm going to reiterate it again. How the government can control and manage how quickly properties are built. So they're keeping that dynamic going of that supply and demand.
Sure. So they are matching it. Yeah, matching. And the data that they have now, which wasn't there 20 years ago when I first came, is so robust and so sharp that they can manage this a lot quicker. Yes. You know. So there's no reason for them to look, there's going to be bumps in the road over the next couple of decades of course there is. But you know, they're in a much stronger position to manage the way this comes online, the flow, because they own most of the available land.
So in a different type of market, different economy, where it's privately owned, everyone's just going to be rushing to build and grab the book. Not going to happen here. So it's going to have a strong chance of being balanced all the way through. I mean, it's not going to be perfect, now. You know, any 20-year period is going to see a bump in the road somewhere. But with everything else, the dynamics of the region going on, it's really positive.
And speaking of that, I think we can sum this up by the forecast, the trend. How do you see the financing trend in Dubai moving forward in the next few years?
I see a lot more innovative products coming online. The mortgage market and just the wider general financing market is very basic compared to other markets. There's a lot of movement between the DLD and DFC and how that can be structured differently. When that happens, I think you will see a lot more outside lending institutions coming in to look at the market, to get involved, to offer different things. To feed the appetite that's there. There's a lot of mature, independent users and businesses that haven't got access to the tools they want here. And if there's a demand, it will come because, I say, it's predominantly left to you know a small group of banks at the moment. 25 banks maybe. Which isn't enough. So I think it's a very positive future-looking outlook.
And can you share a little bit about DFC for people that aren't familiar with that?
International Financial Center. Basically, it's a happening place. And you can walk around. It's like walking on Wall Street. Absolutely. Very much so. Yeah, yeah. Really high-end, great place to go and dine. Just have a walk around. Just to feel that powerful energy of business happening.
So one last question. And I know this will change depending on when this is aired or viewed. Share a little bit with what the rates are right now so that my viewers can compare it to the US.
I mean, best part of 20 years here, rates have typically been. When I first came out here, the rates were like 7 and a half percent. Okay. And still people were buying crazily because the market was going crazy. Prices were going up 20% every 3 months. So people were buying. Didn't matter about the rates. People were buying.
Then after the credit crunch, things sort of tailed off to us. Typically, you know, 3.99 to 4 and a half percent was the average norm rate for the next 10 to 12 years. Then COVID arrived. Different stimulus from the central bank. First time around, the central bank said to the banks, you need to increase your adequacy ratios, which made it more difficult for them to lend. So the banks stopped. Solidified. You know, crash in the market really. They've learned from the mistakes from last time. This time they said there's a hundred billion dollars available. Free. Carry on business as usual. Incredible. And they did.
And this is where we are now. This huge surge in the market that's happening. People didn't need to panic. It was okay. So there was a big domestic push of people that have been sitting on a fence for a number of years. Rates had come down to sort of almost 2, 2.3 percent domestically. People wanted to, you know, if this COVID situation is going to continue, I want some space. I want some garden. So people started upscaling, coming out of the apartments, buying villas. And the market just kicked in and kicked in.
Then you had people that were able to travel. Sort of in the high net worth space, which you're coming in through private transport from mature places in Europe and others. And going, this is actually great. We we know we buy here as well because it's a great place to live. It's safe. We can, you know, this COVID thing's going to go on for a couple of years. We want a place here. And that's another interesting aspect now is the diversity of the mature inbound buyers that are in some really quite salubrious places now and giving them up to come here because it's preferable.
You know, London, Paris, Geneva. It's they're all coming in because this is offering more. And in the past, say going back 20 years ago, if you suggested to the similar type of client that they prefer to live here than there, the laugh. You know, this was just that. That's flipped. It's flipped. It's flipped. Absolutely.
Safety, you know, fantastic safety. Compared to. Lifestyle. The lifestyle. The restaurants. The nightlife. The Deira. Like if whatever you're craving. If you're craving the old heritage and the cultural aspect, you go there. If you want the Vegas style, you go to some of the fancy shows. If it's beach life, the nightlife, yeah, I mean, you can go walking up in Rashidya and Hatta. All those things as well. There's lots of things you can do.
So you know, the summer months get hot. But you know, I'm quite used to them now. And there's more to do in the summer months now.
Well, I also look at it as well. I come from San Diego, so San Diego has the most perfect weather year round. So I'm not speaking about San Diego because it doesn't get better climate wise. But coming from the UK, it's like flipping it for people who suffer during the winter, right? And they have to have a different mentality right. You're just flipping it around. And I have heard of the airplane that missed the whole city. To cool it all down or the outdoor air conditioning. So in this city of the future, Dubai continues to innovate ways to help the people here live this amazingly helpful, healthy, beautiful lifestyle that doesn't make them want to leave. Nobody wants to leave here anymore. Aren't looking to come in for a few years and move on anymore. They come in for a few years and stay. Which has also affected the housing market, right? Because now it's a lot more end users, right?
Yes, absolutely. 75 to 80% of our transactions are all end users.
Well, Warren, I am glad to be able to have such an experienced and educated and intelligent and kind man to work with. An expert in this field to be able to help my investors really take it to the next step and be able to speak with you about their financing options.
I'm welcome. Always happy to help. Thank you.
And so with that, we'll end it. And make sure to like, subscribe, and follow my channel. And you can also find me on Instagram at Gigi Benitez International. Thank you.