Golden Visa: Dubai vs Portugal & Spain Compared

Hi, I'm Ghada Benitez, a certified international property specialist and a licensed realtor connecting global real estate investors with the incredibly lucrative opportunities of Dubai real estate. Today I have a guest of which you continuously ask me questions about property investment visas. I have a specialist in the house today to help. Please welcome Charlie Magie to our show. Charlie, please introduce yourself and the company that you work with. Sure, first of all, thank you so much for having me. My pleasure. So I am Charlie. I'm the founder of the open world residencies and citizenships and basically we help clients to access second residency, permanent residency, second citizenship through investment or donation. I myself am French but I'm a mix, so I grew up between two different cultures. Italian on my dad's side, Moroccan French on my mom's side. What a beautiful mix. Thank you. And I lived in the US for some time. I studied in Miami and then I lived in China for ten years and eventually Portugal and eventually here. So I'm really used to dealing with different kinds of people with different kinds of background, which is why I guess I'm so comfortable in my industry. Love it. And are you enjoying Dubai? Yeah, so far so good. Well, I have a question for you, Charlie. Coming from America myself, born and raised and educated there, but being a first generation Arab American, are you finding it's still the American dream because you have the numbers, or is it the Dubai dream or the European dream? Well, based on the numbers and how many Americans are trying now to get a citizenship or residency from outside of the US, I would say that the American dream is not the big thing anymore. I'm not saying that it doesn't exist anymore but it's definitely I think the economy itself is probably easier to achieve big things when the economy is growing, which is the case here in Dubai. And when the economy is a little bit more, shrinking and stable like it's the case in Europe or in the US, so I would believe more into the Middle East dream. Yes, the Dubai dream. The Dubai come to Dubai. Actually, but that draws me something because I myself this summer went and explored Spain. I've always had this vision in my head of living that European lifestyle and I know that a lot of Americans are seeking that investment visa in Spain, which I think you can update us on the latest, and Portugal and other European countries. But you were talking about the economy. So why are we seeing such an uptick of Americans wanting that European visa if the economy is so tough in, let's say, Spain? Because investors coming from the US, they already have the money and they are not moving to Europe for business purposes. They're really moving to Europe for a few reasons. First of all, safety. I think we've seen a lot of people coming from California, San Francisco, who are probably tired of paying expensive rent, paying a lot of taxes, and at the end of the day living in a pretty unsafe environment. There are tax reasons. There is also I think a feeling of living in a kind of unstable country where there are a lot of people. It's very divided in a way. I'm not saying that Europe is not, but I think the US would be very the top first country in terms of how divided the country is. And so at the end of the day it's like you invest in the country, so it's an investment. You are not giving your money away. You invest in the country and on top of that you're like, oh I can get the residency and in some cases even the citizenship. You're like, why not? It's a backup option. And you're right. And actually you stated it so beautifully. If you're coming to Spain for example, you're not coming to make money there, which the locals of course don't appreciate. But you are investing in their economy in the sense of purchasing property, correct? Right, yes. So that does help the overall economy, which some tourists or some local residents maybe don't appreciate although it does drive the property prices up. Yes, but look at the end of the day when you look at Portugal. The minimum investment, because they scrapped the real estate golden visa, the golden visa through real estate in Portugal, now it's only investment through investment funds. Oh yeah. But so the main reason was that because there are foreigners investing but the minimum investment was really half a million, and it wasn't really affecting the local market because the average salary for local people in Portugal was still pretty low and so people wouldn't actually buy properties of half a million. So actually when they scrapped the real estate route for golden visa and we looked at the numbers, we realized that the transactions related to golden visa in real estate were less than 2%. So it's not really affecting the market. No, it's not. That misconception then is correct. Correct. And what about in Spain? Did they scrap that as well? In Spain, now they are planning to next year. But I heard the numbers weren't that high either. It's all about politics really. I think it's just to make people feel that they are doing something. But at the end of the day, look, if you don't increase the salaries and you don't reduce the rent and you don't cap the rents, there's going to be a problem anyway. Spain I know, but Portugal I can tell you more if you don't mind. Because I live there and we have an office where I live in Lisbon. Was it beautiful? It's very nice. I need to make my way over there still. Okay, tell me about it. Lisbon, Portugal became very successful, especially after COVID, for a few different reasons. Not only the golden visa, really. It's because now people could work from home. It's like, why would you stay in Paris or in London or in Stockholm when you can actually move to a better environment? It's sunny. The beach is like 15 minutes from your place. So a lot of foreigners moved there, digital nomads and all this, and they had money. So they started to pay higher rent and of course the landlords were like, oh we can keep on increasing the rent. So that was one of the main issues. The main issue was not the golden visa because the golden visa was already there. The nomad visa was causing the issues more. I would say probably more, even though digital nomads when you actually go to Lisbon tend to live on the other side of the bridge in Caparica. But still, yeah, I would say I mean I include myself in the problem to be honest. Because I was in China for ten years and I left China during the pandemic and I moved to Portugal and I moved to Lisbon and I'm pretty sure the rent I was paying was extremely expensive compared to what the rent was two years before, before all the foreigners moved there. So I think this is one of the problems. So they scrapped that and now in Portugal, by the way, Portugal now Americans are the top investors in the golden visa in Portugal. Why do you think that is? A lot of Californians, a lot of people from San Francisco. I think people from San Francisco. I think people know that the climate is comparable, very very similar. You even have a similar bridge to be honest, like the Golden Gate Bridge. So people feel comfortable there. There is a lot of startups. There is the Web Summit happening right now, which is a big exhibition forum for startups and tech. So San Fran really likes this place from California. So they're coming there. Correct. Even the time zone is one hour less than Spain and France, so you're a little bit closer than to the US time. Makes sense. So what about the language barrier in Portugal? Everybody likes people really speak good English in Portugal. Because I found that to be the case as well in Spain, which Malaga in southern Spain also has, I think, Google headquarters and they're also now considered a startup center in Europe. And everyone speaks English there as well, which is a huge benefit. But I know Portugal is your baby. So let's go back to Portugal. Sorry, no, I'm just explaining why I think Americans are investing there heavily. So now investment in real estate is gone. You have to invest in investment funds. But actually if I know you do real estate and real estate investment is great and it's a great diversification but funds are also good because you don't have taxes on dividends and you don't need like a property manager to manage your business and all that. For people looking for real estate, I think Dubai is a great option still to this day. The golden visa is great. Ten years residency. You don't have to live here. You can set up a business, open a bank account. And we have seen Europeans. Actually, one month, I forgot which month last year or this year, not this year, French investors were the biggest in golden visa in the UAE for one month because there is a law being discussed right now in parliament. They want to establish like the same thing that you guys in the states have, that as long as you own the French passport you pay taxes. Do you think that's going to pass? No. Okay, so it's not going to pass. I hope not because, imagine that's the position I'm in. But you're not in that position right, as a US citizen? As a French and then also. Okay. So Portugal, United States number one investors, and not through property but through funds for properties for funds. Yes. And you can help people do that? You set them up? You figure it out for them? We have a portfolio of different funds. So depending on what you want to invest, actually you can even diversify between ten funds if you want. So some funds are going to be investing in gold and commodities, so pretty safe. Other ones are going to be investing in agricultural land or in AI. So it's really depends on what you want. Half a million euros? Half a million. You can diversify 50-50-50-50 to different funds. And how long do you get the residency? Five years. Okay. You can come and go as much as you want into Portugal? And you can because when you get a golden visa from a place, it's like, here it's not only about coming and going. It's also you can take advantage of the health system, education, driver's license. Very good universities in Portugal. And all that. And also you can travel into Schengen. And after five years get your passport. That's what I was going to ask you. So if I get the five year residency from Portugal, am I free then to live anywhere in Europe? No. You cannot live anywhere in Europe but you can stay technically 90 days in other countries in Schengen. But again, there is no control. There is no border. I mean, there's no passport in between, right? So no one can really say if you've been staying longer. But in any case you're not supposed to work in other Schengen countries. Got it. We have you can in Portugal with that visa. Yes. In that country if you want to. But keep in mind that the whole concept of golden visa is to get access to a residency without living in the country. That's why you invest into the country. Because if you want to move to Portugal, get a job, pay your taxes, you will get your residency anyway. Good point. So I'm really talking about people who want to invest. Yes. We have also access to something that could be potentially interested for Americans too. It's the talent program in Schengen. Tell me about that. So you have to have at least a master's degree. But of course if you have a master's or PhD you're eligible. Five years of experience in your field. You have to receive a job offer from any country in Schengen. Then you get this talent program and with that you have a four-year residency in Schengen. And for this one you can live and work in any country in Schengen. Did you say a job offer? Where does the job offer have to be? Anywhere in Europe. Anywhere in Europe. Okay, I understand. Then back to real estate investments, there are still a few countries in Europe where you can invest in real estate. There is Greece. Greece is still to this day 250,000 euros with some conditions. Are you able to help people? We have everything in our portfolio. Where else? Real estate investment, well, there is Caribbean where you actually buy shares into a project for real estate project. And this is straight citizenship. So you get your passport right away. And Malta. Malta, you it's a donation in Malta. For citizenship it's a donation and it's quite expensive. It's like between 700,000 to one million euros for residency in Malta. It's an investment in real estate, you're right, but it doesn't lead to citizenship. It's only a residency. It's only residency. Yes, thank you. That's great to know. So we know that Americans are in exponential numbers, record numbers, seeking that second passport. You're saying Americans are the top in Portugal. I think Spain is still very high on the list as well. But I know that's going to stop with regards to investment visa through real estate. Yeah, but there is the digital nomad visa and there are other ways, I guess right. But then you have to live there. So there is one of the leading companies in the industry called Henley and Partners and they, there was an article a few days ago saying that now Americans are 20% of their clients. Wow. And you can imagine that back in the days it wasn't the case. As a matter of fact, look, it's a growing industry because each country has its own reason. Correct. So there was also an article saying that every year there are 200,000 Indians giving up on their citizenship. Wow. So you have like the Middle Easterners for their own reason. You have the CIS countries, so like Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Russia. You have the African countries where some people have money but the traveling passport is not so strong. So every country has its own reason. But America, again, Americans, it's a little bit different. I don't think it's to get a better passport. But again, it's just because they feel probably that for the amount of money they are paying into rent and taxes, it's not worth where they are staying. And also I think most, I mean, better than me, but I think a lot of Americans are a little bit skeptical and scared about what's going to happen in the future. So it's like an exit strategy. Correct. Canadians, are you finding a lot of Canadians also seeking this? I don't have a lot of Canadian clients. I do, I do especially Canadians. Yes, here. Yeah, I'm sure. Actually Canada, what happened? They have a program too in Canada. It's a startup visa. But Canadians, I know a lot of Canadians are trying to relocate somewhere else also because of taxes. I heard. So yeah. Look, French, British. There are over 6,000 British millionaires who left the UK this year alone. The British were the number one buyers in Dubai real estate a few months ago and they have been increasing a lot. Europeans actually, French, German, Turkish also. Do you work with them? I do. Very nice. So then let's segue into my passion if that's okay. Dubai. Yeah. So I have had a couple of podcast episodes and it seems to really resonate well with people that tune in to the Dubai Connect podcast that are trying to learn more about investment. So if you may, please just clarify the difference between the two-year and the five-year visas through investment here in Dubai. Here and ten years you mean, right? Sorry, correct. Sorry about that. So ten years would be for a property over two million dirhams, about 500,000 USD. Correct. Yes. And two years would be for a property lower than this threshold. And golden visa is a great option because again if like me for example I register my company here and I get a normal residency, I have to come back every six months to keep this residency. With the golden visa it's not the case. So let's sit there for one second on that because some people will say to me, well, I'll just start a company there. I don't need to invest to get the visa, right? But then you're going to have to come back and commit to every six months coming back and it's only good for two years, correct? Versus ten years. Ten years. And yeah, okay. But for ten years. But again it's like there are three ways, right? And there's talent as well. Talent as well. And there's four ways actually because there is nomination as well. Yes, correct. Which is you don't really know how. I mean, they just decide that this applicant is nominated. So I guess it benefits the country, correct? And then you get your golden visa. Because Dubai being the city of the future and really trying to attract residents, not just investors, they really want to bring a diverse pool of talent. And they are. I mean, look at you. You're here. No, I talk to a lot of young graduates, okay, coming from the UK working in finance, French people, Americans. I feel maybe a little bit less at the moment because it's a little far and it's still the Middle East. So maybe there is some kind of misconception about the Middle East. But I talk to again Europeans and they are coming here a lot. They are coming here because also I think what's amazing about Dubai is that it was only mainly a place for tourism before and now they're really getting bigger in food industry, manufacturing, finance, real estate, and all this. So you have more and more jobs being created, tech. They have the AI tech campus. And as you stated, the International Financial Center. And there are so many initiatives in place like you said to attract even the new graduates from all over the world. English is the most commonly spoken language and I think it's like 85% of Dubai are expats. But it's a very harmonious, safe place to live where you really feel like, I mean, you having lived in China for ten years, having lived in the United States, having lived in Lisbon, Portugal, how do you compare the lifestyle now that you're living in Dubai? So it's interesting because here in Dubai everybody tells me about how safe it is and how international it is. Frankly speaking, in China in Shanghai I was already in a very international bubble, so I was meeting a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds. And Shanghai is pretty safe. China overall, Hong Kong is pretty safe. But I would say that the main difference between China and here is that when I got my residency, I went back to France. And when I came back, the security check, the person checking my passport, said welcome back home. And I was like, wow. I was living 12 years in China speaking the language, learning the language, and everything. The cultural difference is so big that you never feel home. You feel like you're a little bit as an outsider. A lot a bit, yes. Yeah. But here it's different. I feel like you really feel home. Really profound actually. Yeah. And it doesn't matter what religion you are. It doesn't matter what culture you are. I love that so much, right? There's such misconceptions, especially coming from divided societies like ours, right? Like France and US and everything. Everyone is fighting for left and right and this and that. And you come here and everyone is just living together in peace and harmony. It's like how did they manage to do that? I have to tell you a little story. So I myself, even though I am Arab American, I fought the idea of coming to the Middle East my whole life because I'm a progressive liberal-minded person. And I had my own preconceived notions of what it would be like to come to the Middle East. So I fought it, fought it, fought it until two years ago, a little over two years ago. And it's because one of my best friends moved here. She took advantage of using her education to climb and be very high in her positioning here. And she kept saying, stop being ignorant. You need to come. Yeah. The second day that I was here, I started crying. And I said I cannot believe how stubborn I was and how I myself had such a different idea of what Dubai would be like. Yeah. But I want to be a part of this. Yes, the Dubai dream. Yes. I want to be part of what's happening here. And I want to use what I am learning to help go back to America and break the stereotypes and misconceptions that I myself had, right? And I'm using real estate as that vehicle. Very good. But my purpose is so much greater. Yeah. And so having conversations with experts like you to come and say this is how easy it is to be able to secure a visa and come be part of a city of the future, not just from a real estate investment perspective. We could and I do this on many podcasts where we dive into apples to apples comparison about the affordability of getting into the real estate market, about the significantly high capital appreciation, the rental returns, the no property taxes, the safety of your investment compared to investing in other countries. Yeah, but it's so much bigger than that. It is, right. And we're both part of this Dubai dream now. Yeah, it is. And I think there are a lot of people also probably in the US not feeling extremely comfortable anymore because of what's happening in the environment. And then they come here and they're like, oh actually I can have this life of being myself and not being judged. That's really nice. You can practice your religion, be who you are, dress how you want. Yeah, but I do feel like my kids ask me, aren't you going to get arrested? You can't curse. And I said but when you come here you have to still respect the laws. You're in a different country. Actually, I like that too because I think we lost it. I mean it's another debate. 100% agree with you. I think we lost it a little bit in the west. There's fear of repercussion if we do something. And this is the other thing, Charlie, is that nobody wants to get kicked out of Dubai because they're so grateful for the opportunity to live here and be able to work, make money, tax-free. No personal income taxes in Dubai. And there's this common, I mean, they love their leadership because they know that the leadership in Dubai is looking out for their best interests because you see it. I think that's the main difference. Again, back to some countries where you pay 30, 40, 50% taxes and you look around you. You're like, where is, where is the infrastructure? You have homeless people and the streets are dirty. Yeah, exactly. And here you see like you barely pay taxes and then on top of this you have new highways being built right in front of your eyes because the traffic is not good enough. Exactly. So you're like, okay, there are actually things happening. Absolutely. I think back to why also one of the reasons the industry is doing so well, I think social media really helped. Because what you said maybe back 15, 20 years ago, you're in the US, someone tells you about Dubai, you're like, Middle East, it's so far, it's probably dangerous, and all this. Well, think about the media and the narrative that has been painted to us in the United States and France also, trust me. But now you see with social media it's the same reason for anyone. Like, you're from a country, you have a little bit of money, and you see that you can get access to a better passport, better residency. You can send your kids to a better school. You can send your parents to a better hospital just by paying a little bit of money. I think it really helped my industry too. But I think overall we're much more comfortable now to sit on a plane and go to another place because we know pretty much what we can expect from this new place. And I think social media really helped. And Dubai has been really great with social media overall. Absolutely agree with you. And I love so, you know what, I also love about your offering particularly is that you're very experienced. You're here in Dubai but because you've also lived in Asia, you lived in Europe, you have offices everywhere. So you're sort of a one-stop shop for anybody that's looking, right? No matter where they're really looking? Is there any way that you don't handle? No, we actually, we're really aware of when a country because the demand is increasing, right? But the supply is also increasing. You have new countries opening up new programs because they see how much money can be made. Portugal made between five to seven billion euros in golden visa in one year. Wow. So you have countries thinking, okay, maybe I should open up a program. It's just about attracting money, injecting money into the economy, and in exchange for a residency or citizenship. So we are really aware. I'm not saying that all the programs are good. Some countries try and not a single investor goes, so they just like scrap the program. But some countries like there are really successful things happening. So what are the top five most strongest that you have found to be the most successful ones? I think the strongest one still to this day, I would say especially now, is probably Caribbean islands, the countries, the Caribbean countries, because again it's a direct access to citizenship. There is sometimes a feeling of emergency that we don't have because we have a good passport. But keep in mind that some people, if they keep the passport, potentially they can be enrolled to go to a war or they are unable to travel. And they don't have time to wait five years for citizenship. So they would go straight for these Caribbean programs. Portugal is doing very well. Greece is doing very well. And then the UAE is doing Dubai is doing very well. It's increasing. Yeah, fantastic. Oh, it's amazing. It's very good. It is fantastic. So well with that, I really thank you for making the time to come on to my podcast and sharing with my audience what is going on, what the numbers are, and your offering. And I'm sure they will be reaching out to you. And we'll probably have you back on to talk about more updates in the future. So thank you, Charlie. Come to my podcast. What's the name of your podcast? From Here to There. From Here to There. And what's it about? From Here to There, people born and raised in country A that moved to country B. So I think you would be a perfect fit actually. Absolutely. I'd be honored. So thank you. With that, please make sure to like, subscribe, follow, and stay tuned for the next episode of The Dubai Connect. Good.